I felt like espresso machines were getting very large, plasticky, and app-integrated without actually improving the underlying technologies that make them work. The noisy vibratory pumps in particular are from 1977 and haven’t really changed since then. So I wanted to focus on making the most advanced internals I could and leaving everything else as minimalist as possible. The pump is, as far as I know, completely unique in terms of power density and price. Without spending several thousand dollars, it was difficult to find a machine with a gear pump, and adjustable pressure was also similarly expensive but this machine has those things and costs a normal amount to buy. You can also turn the pressure way down and make filter coffee.
I also saw so many people (including myself) using a scale while making espresso, and even putting a cup below the group head to catch drips, entirely negating the drip tray, so I basically designed for that! The profile of the machine is much lighter on the eyes and doesn’t loom in the corner like my old espresso machine did.
And for the grinder, basically everything on the market uses conical and flat burrs that have descended from spice grinders, and the same couple of standard sizes. Sometimes larger companies design their own burrs, but only within those existing shapes. There is sort of a rush to put larger and larger burrs into coffee grinders, which makes sense, but with cylindrical burrs, you can increase the cutting surface way more relative to the size of the grinder. When grinders get too big, maintaining alignment becomes mechanically cumbersome, but the cylindrical burr can be very well supported from the inside, and there is the added benefit of hiding the entire motor within the burr itself. The resulting grounds are just outright better than all the other grinders I have used, but obviously this is a matter of taste and my own personal bias.
The biggest downside for the grinder is that it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts, because the coffee expands so much while traveling down through the burrs and can sometimes clog up the teeth. It doesn’t hurt the grinder but it does require cleaning (which is tool-free!). Another downside for both machines is the fact that they run on DC power so it’s best if you have a spot in your kitchen to tuck away the power brick.
I also made a kit that makes the gear pump a drop-in upgrade for other espresso machines, to reduce noise and add adjustable pressure.
https://velofuso.com/store/p/gear-pump-upgrade-kit
The roughest part of this process were the moments midway through development where they weren’t working at all. When the grinder is just jamming itself instantly or the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible or the pump is alternating between spraying water out the side and into your face and not pumping at all. And the default thought is “Of course it’s not working, if this was going to work someone else would have already made it like this”. The route you’ve taken is fundamentally different enough that there are no existing solutions to draw on. You’re basically feeling around in the dark for months on end, burning money, and then one day, every little cumulative change suddenly adds up to a tasty espresso. And it’s not perfect yet, but you at least can see the road ahead.
Anyways, this is way more than I expected to write, thank you for reading! Tell me if you have any questions
- Congrats! The design looks nice, but I'm not very fond of the website design. There isn't a single picture of Trefolo that doesn't crop-out some part of it. Also, every picture is in a "sterile" environment. It would be nice to have a picture of it on a real kitchen counter or coffee corner to put its dimensions into perspective, and also demonstrate how it "fades back into the environment".
Also, IMHO, the sustainability pitch is a nice one but needs to be put down in more precise terms. It is good as it is for people who would otherwise buy a Nespresso machine, but anyone who has bought something above that level would need more convincing.
Overall, a good espresso machine already scores pretty high sustainability-wise. Apart from the used of sustainable/premium materials, a key factor to that is the replacement parts and repairability. So, how does Trefolo do in terms of replacement parts and compatibility with 3rd party parts?
For me, the future lack of replacement parts is especially concerning for the Turbina coffee grinder. The use of bespoke grinding burrs adds a wow factor and may be functionally superior to other types of burrs. But this is the one part in the whole setup that is guaranteed to need replacement down the road. What are the provisions for that? How much would it cost? And if you decide to stop selling it, would you e.g. be willing to commit to releasing the burr design so owners or some independent manufacturer can machine replacements?
- It's a good presentation, but it's not sufficient as a sales pitch. A non-staged video of both the grinder and the machine in use would be required to place an order, at least for me. As others have mentioned it's not clear where the water pipes go exactly and how the machine is powered.
Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
For the pump kit - this too looks interesting, but requires (way) more details. At the very least a list of supported machines and, again, a video or two of an actual retrofit. Dimensions, voltage (!), etc.
- I don't understand these comments, both the product and the website is fantastic. This is the most impressive solo project I've seen in my life. I'm especially intrigued by the novel grinder design; and it is amazing that you could fit the motor in there. Top notch industrial design coupled with novel approaches. Almost in too-good-to-be-true land, but I will take your claims at face value. If this all checks out, this is an amazing set of products for the enthusiasts at home at a good price point (considering the market).
And don't get discouraged by the attacks on your web design, I think the website is excellent the way it is. Leave it to some reviewers to go into nitty gritty real world stuff; your website does a great job of showcasing the design language and what's great about the product.
- First thought: Cash grab
There's no way someone who designed, manufactured, tested and refined all this original equipment wouldn't include some technical photos, documents, experience or anything to 'sell' the product. And with pre-orders? There isn't even a single video of it making espresso without total cropping.
For reference - The owner lists his studies in media design and works for Terra Kaffe - claiming involvement in building Terra Kaffe TK-02
I'll happily change my opinion if anything resembling original invention is presented.
- Please make sure you protect your design in the UK and EU by registering it. It doesn't cost a huge amount, and the design is striking and different enough that it would be a shame if it was copied.
(Unless you're comfortable with that of course!)
- It's a beautiful pump, but feels like only part of what an espresso machine is.
What heats the water? What provides temperature control? How would I produce steam?
It is so single purpose that it does not feel useful by itself, it feels like the prototype for part of a whole.
I like the idea of it, and I like the idea of "part of the whole" being a composable coffee machine where one could put together components which were all independently maintainable and highly serviceable... this feels like a taster for that, but by itself is very expensive for a pump that claims to be an espresso machine but could not produce an espresso alone, and would need something else to make any espresso derived coffee.
What this replaces is a lever espresso machine, but I'm not sure anyone with a home coffee machine would've purchased a lever espresso machine without the integrated boiler... and if they would, then this is right there https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/lever-machines/produc...
You would benefit greatly from a video that showed the workflow end-to-end of making an espresso... from bean to the final drink.
- Absolutely love this , congrats on making your dream a reality. I know how much work it is to bring something from concept to actual product one can use. Also it hurts me to say this but the website is trash. I know you are trying to go for modern look but at no point I can see the full machine, the price is hidden and there are just over exposed images and videos with very hard to read information. This will not convert. Why do I have to add it to cart to see the price ? Please DM me if you need help with website. Some examples of similar sites that convert (based on my exp in e-com and retail designs/development)
https://us.rok.coffee/products/presso-smartshot-soft-teal https://aeropress.com/products/aeropress-coffee-maker-premiu...
Good luck !
"...it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts" I think this is a feature :)
- This looks great! I think I need to wait for some reviews to know if the coffee is good, but I would also like to offer you some advice. Your website is very poorly designed and does not match the craftsmanship of the machine itself. The animated fonts, constant videos, lack of white space—it all adds up to something that feels like a quick design job by a mid-level design student.
Any paid template from any of the big website building companies would be better than what you have at the moment.
Also, photography-wise, as a lot of other people have suggested here, take a few steps back. Just show the whole product on a worktop, without videos. You're not Apple; it’s not iconic yet. A close-up won’t suffice. We need to see the whole thing static, not in a close-up video all the time. (The reason you’ve done this is that you’re very familiar with the design. Visitors are not—you’ve forgotten what it’s like to see it for the first time.)
I hope this comes across in the way it’s intended. The device is gorgeous; it should be treated with the respect of a good website.
- I feel like I’ve seen a dozen photos of it now and still have no idea what it looks like. Could you maybe take a couple steps back and snap a shot or two?
- First of all, congratulations. It must be a monumental task to design and manufacture a mechanical machine.
However, the website is kind of confusing regarding the operation of the machine. You say that the machine accepts hot water directly, so no boiler or thermoblock, which results in a simpler machine. But where does the water come from? I see 2 pipes leading to/from the machine in the videos, so I’m guessing the water feeds from one and drains from the other? So you need to preheat water in a container? Won’t the water cool rapidly while traveling in the pipe?
- Cool product!
However, to me the site feels very anonymous. I’m not currently in the market for a coffee grinder, but in general if I where to spend $700 on a product I at least would like to know things such as the name of the company, what country the company is incorporated in, warranty info, returns policy, etc.
A presentation of the founder wouldn’t hurt either, and preferably some 3rd party reviews of the product.
- If I was in a market for minimalistic espresso machine I'd just get a manual espresso machine, something like the cafelat robot [1]. No plastic, standard professional 58mm group head (compared to the 51mm here), pressure gauge, no need for any hot water tubes, no electronics
- I pretty much immediately bounced due to your website design. Idk how to describe it - but, I guess just too much going on? I had zero interest in actually reading any of it because it was just so... I don't know.
Turn it into a normal ol' expected ecom product page so I can actually read and just click and see things and different angles and such and I would've stayed.
But good luck!
- You should totally send one over to James Hoffman. See what he thinks!
- Congrats, I'm jealous. I too want to design an espresso machine and I see that you covered many of my complaints already :)
It looks great and the presentation is also amazing. However, I wasn't able to understand the website at first glance because my first instinct was to check who made this and how much it costs. You have to click a few times to see the price and I couldn't find who is going to send me this from where. IMHO you should have a page explaining why I should trust you and also I would like to see an address because when those things lack I got the vibes that someone is trying to sell me something from Temu at %1000 price. It's just the vibes.
Anyway, I hope you have succeed in this because the espresso machines desperately need a revolution.
- I was just wondering the other day why all espresso machines seem to have the same loud pump from the same factory. The pump is just a plastic tube, a sping, a valve and a huge coil around it that vibrates on mains 50/60Hz. Essentially a soap dispenser combined with a doorbell
- Congratulations on your product! I don't know if i missed it, but i feel like you are hiding two very important parts of the machine: the power supply (you call it power brick) and the water container. For any machine i put permanently in my kitchen, I would prefer having a box that contains everything needed.
- > the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible
Unless you're smarter than all of them, perhaps take the hint? Fabricators aren't just there to complain, heeding their advice here would probably save you money. Red flag.
- Great work.
One extra thing about plastic that's more pernicious - under heat it breaks down into microplastics and nanoplastics that are awful for our bodies. A lot of research has recently been published about this in 2024.[1][2][3][4][5][6] It seems like we're just beginning to prove it. I keep track of this by watching Mike Mutzel[7] on YouTube, which I recommend to anybody interested in the topic
Does the water touch plastic in any part of the machine?
1 - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822 2 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385827603_New_insig... 3 - https://particleandfibretoxicology.biomedcentral.com/article... 4 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38890513/ 5 - https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2300582121 6 - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822 7 - https://www.youtube.com/@Highintensityhealth/videos
- > The biggest downside for the grinder is that it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts
I have no idea whether my coffee is oily or not. I sometimes buy Starbucks Blonde Roast, is that oily? I would expect a $749 grinder work with any coffee beans.
And the grinder looks great, except for the two things that immediately catch my eye:
- the cable that I feel should come from the base and not hang like that.
- I think there should be a (optional) storage container integrated where the ground coffee goes.
And the 'See more' link ( https://velofuso.com/oculo ) doesn't work
- Feedback on your website: If you have designed a product and you are proud of the visual design show it. Don’t do a thousand different strange angles and moving pans around it to obscure what it actually looks like. The impression your site gives is that you’re trying to convince yourself that it might actually look good, but that you don’t really believe it yourself, so you are doing everything in your power to change the perception of it away from what people will actually see if they just look at it.
- > I also saw so many people (including myself) using a scale while making espresso, and even putting a cup below the group head to catch drips, entirely negating the drip tray
The drip tray is also where the 3-way valve dumps the excess water when the extraction is compete and the system is depressurized.
It is also not just for drips, it is used for flushing, though I guess you can use a bowl here. I also see that it is designed for a naked portafilter, these are great, but they can be a bit messy if your technique is not perfect, making something like a drip tray even more relevant.
Maybe offer a platter as an accessory, to avoid messing the countertop. I also wonder how the system is depressurized without a visible 3-way valve chute.
- Wow this looks really interesting. Do you per chance have a video of you using the grinder & machine?
I’m not quite sure I understand where the hot water is added, but I like not having a boiler.
- The techie's midlife crisis isn't a sports car, it's an espresso machine.
- Some feedback - your market is undoubtedly going to be coffee nerds, and we are instantly turned off by the video of the very unappealing shot being pulled on this page https://velofuso.com/trefolo.
If any situation ever called for the early 2000's ideal expression of espresso, this is it. Break out the double city roast, grind it fine and pull some ristretto shots with tiger stripes. It might taste trash but it will make for much better marketing.
Kudos for making something cool. 5 second preheat is awesome.
- I'm quite intrigued by the gear pump upgrade kit, since this was something I had been planning to do for a while. The vibratory pump from my E61 machine is incredibly loud and doesn't particularly spark joy.
Looking around the market for some used Fluid-o-tech gear pumps which were not extremely expensive was quite frustrating. Also having to deal with the correct power supply for the replacement pump wasn't something I was looking forward to.
Props on releasing such cool products!
Order #1 for the Pump kit went through. Looking forward to try it out!
- First off -- this is sweet and you should be proud.
Without data, I'm skeptical of the claim > that gravity does most of the work to reduce retention
Naively, I'd guess that the increased surface area from the cylindrical burr increases the retention rate since it's mostly caused by static cling. There's mention of a built-in knocker, but even with the dissected machine photos, I can't tell where that knocker is housed or how it would function.
- What is reason for all this fancy website stuff and marketing jargon instead of just a youtube video with a bunch of runs of the machine where we see it in action?
- There's only one clip/snippet in there of the machine actually producing espresso and whatever comes out looks very thin and watery with no crema visible. That's worrying.
Google "bottomless portafilter shot" for how it's supposed to look.
- I would love to see a video of it in action. Nearly all the photos on the site don’t show the whole thing, just lots of close up shots such that I can’t really tell what the whole thing actually looks like or what using it would be like.
I assume it does work, but I have this gut skepticism because it’s so radically different from any espresso machine I’ve seen before.
- There is a lot to like, but not enough info right now to make me place an order! I have many questions. For example
regarding the machine,
- can you confirm if the pump can be adjusted during the shot (profiling)?
- can the shot be programmed too, or just manual?
regarding the grinder,
- can you explain a bit how the "knocker" works when you twist the hopper?
- I guess that the burr is unimodal, do you have more details about distribution or flavor profile?
- Can you give some feedback as to how people can feel confident you will produce this machine?
People are used to larger teams taking literally years to put out a machine - see "Odyssey Argos" and "Meticulous" - and years of delays after preorder is announced.
Both are probably not significantly more complicated than your machine - and you are aspiring to also put out a grinder with a totally new concept.
I am really excited about the product, but I think answering the above will go some way to help you get a lot of preorders.
Additionally, re: the pumps, I would love to order and put these in my Decent. The Decent uses really standard vibe pumps (which are super annoying) but what does the flow rate look like compared to standard vibe pumps? The decent can get up to 8ml/s I think - but it uses two pumps to mix hot and cold water. So I wonder if this would be about the same as a traditional vibe pump.
- As a coffee freak my first impression is "shut up and take my money". However if I compare it to my current setup I lack steaming wand and a clarity on what to do with those cables that stick from the pump unit. I'd love to see a three legged design that hides the water + power cables or even a small water tank.
- What a beautiful bit of work. Are they actually commercially available and how are you going to handle production? Did you set out to sell them from the start or was it a personal project that has spiralled? How long have you been working on it?
In any case, congratulations!
- Congratulations on the development and taking pre-orders! You certainly have my attention. I would love to see some scientific breakdown of the grind analysis at certain sizes - just to see how consistent the grinder can be. Some media of you (or someone) actually using the grinder and espresso machine would be really helpful to really get an idea of what a total flow looks like. I am especially curious about boiling and adding water.
Will definitely be saving for future reference when I need to upgrade my current grinder.
- The minimal design is beautiful. I’ll second others that you need some candid simple non marketing hype howto videos of actually using the equipment, as well as reviews to get people to place orders. The cropped photos, e.g. not showing what is connected to the tubes seem potentially misleading. Look at Seattle Coffee Gear for some good video styles- they would also be an example of experts whose reviews I would trust, however they don't seem to be very into simple non-automatic machines.
- While I’m curious of this design, can someone tell me why my cafelat robot is inferior? It’s performed for years with zero maintenance and minimal cleaning. It pulls excellent shots. It takes up minimal counter space. The only downside I can think of is it’s not ergonomic - disabled or less strong individuals may not be comfortable with its physical operation. But short of that … it’s perfect. It is my peak coffee optimization (not one narrow measure of perfection). What am I missing?
- I'd like to just put a drive-by comment as to how thoroughly, deeply impressed I am with all this. Taking any product from idea to completion is very hard, and these both look like very non-trivial products with deep challenges in design, technology, sourcing materials, manufacturing, all the way to website design, marketing and so on. To be able to offer this at $649 right out the gate blows my mind. That's plenty competitive in the fancy coffee market!
- Very cool, props to you for pushing through on a solo hardware project. Most of the keyboard ticklers in here have no idea of the types of challenges involved. Very funny to see their critiques mainly limited to the domain they have experience in i.e. the website.
It's also interesting to see the reaction to the price - to some, your price points are absurd, but I've met a few coffee enthusiasts who have spent 4x what you're pricing for a grinder.
Best of luck!!
- I want one, but I need a Video with a real life demonstration. A kind of manual where I can see all parts and at least one independent reviewer.
- Congrats to the website, too, great design, and actually informative and a nice, modern experience without being gimmicky, really good!
I'll try to be helpful, so allow me to point out that near the bottom of the espresso machine, the grinder is called Oculo, guess you changed that mid-way? Also, do you consider it necessary to open new tabs when you go from the home page to the two sub-pages with your products? I mean you stay on the same domain so why open a new tab? I find that's unexpected.
Lastly, I didn't quite grasp how the cylindrical burr works and how one can adjust ground size with this arrangement. I'd really appreciate a schematic! Also I think you are totally allowed to right-out dis flat burrs because of their inherent weaknesses. As for oily roasts, that's my preferred roast, the coffee's so much better and also my hand grinder feels so much better, so it's a shame if I couldn't use a burr with those.
Other than that, good luck with your project!
- I would really recommend having a reviewer take a look, or at least include grind analysis yourselves.
Love the idea of a new type of burr beyond flat and conical, but would like to see someone actually use it and scientifically compare the profiles.
I kind of doubt the line "it works for all styles" because even with flat / conical there are so so many different types and resulting taste / body profiles. It's largely a personal preference. So I'd like something like the chart lagom provides.
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b125642ec4eb7...
- I’ve been looking into pump upgrade options for my Silvia, but I’d given up on gear pumps assuming they’d be too large/expensive. Do you have an additional info /specs on your pump? Hard to find it on the site.
I’m most intrigued (and politely skeptical) about the grinder. How’s the grind distribution look (and fines) compared to other popular espresso grinders? My Rocky was great two decades ago, but not today; my other grinders are targeting clarity from light roast pour overs. Need a new grinder for getting my Silvia up and running again.
FWIW, I’m basically your target audience. I either need a grinder and pump or grinder and machine. Will be following. Either way, congrats on the huge solo effort.
- Where we’re going we don’t need no stinking drip tray!
Believe me. You need a drip tray.
Best of luck. Hope it turns out better than ZPM.
- Either I can't find it or the site needs more detail. I'm totally blind and have a couple of questions I can't find answers to. 1. Is the grinder stepless? Based on the description it appears it is. This is a deal breaker for me. 2. How do you control the Espresso machine? There are many coffee products I can't use do to there interface. I'd like to get a Fellow Aiden coffee maker but the interface is completely inaccessible. It's unclear to me if there app will ever allow you to fully control the machine. If this machine had a documented API I'd be interested. I've looked at the Decent espresso machine, but can't justify the cost since I drink mostly filter coffee.
- It sure looks pretty. Both the site and the machine. And the tech sounds interesting too! There are a bunch of fabulous devices out there though, not sure how to understand just how great this is, some third party validation would help me. Anyhow, excellent presentation!
- > REIMAGINING OF THE ESPRESSO MACHINE
It's a brave brave person who takes on the decision to reimagine something that people are so particular and pedantic over.
I have to say it's an interesting idea though! Sounds like it wasn't easy too. good luck with the journey!
- Nice! As someone who has never used an espresso machine, I was a bit intimidated by the presentation. I think part of your show should be to teach, even if in a simplified fashion, how to use the machine, so any customer is less intimidated :)
- Looks you have brought a touch of Dyson to the world of coffee. I hope you do well! I can't see your presence online at all, like no search results other than this HN post which is odd. If you can ship in January you might want to be marketing a bit more.
Have you patented the cylindrical grinder? That looks like a new idea. I wouldn't mind trying that.
Needs a youtube demo video I think. Plus you might want to give one to a few coffee influencers. Maybe give it to a few r/espresso regulars first to pedant about, then fix those things, as you don't want a crap review.
Or can some RSU rich HN-ian just buy it and post a review, pls :-)
- I recommend you send samples to coffee machine reviewers on youtube and have them review it and offer their opinion. I feel this is the kind of product that needs consistent marketing efforts to maintain stream.
- I am very much the target market for this and it looks super interesting. Some feedback on copy: from the website I thought the espresso machine worked like the flair et al where you pour water into a reservoir on top, so I dismissed it since while that’s a neat thing, it’s not my preferred workflow. I then read a comment here that said it’s actually designed to suck up water from a kettle placed next to it. That’s brilliant! I suggest making that clear in the marketing.
- Great work on the product design. The website, while very pretty, can be a bit disorienting. I agree with some of the suggestions about pushing a video so that users can see it in action and finding more ways to get them to the shop page. There's only a single shop button at the top. What's missing is likely header navigation.
Also, a few typos you might want to fix asap: https://triplechecker.com/s/306095/velofuso.com
- > the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible
Then perhaps take the hint? Fabricators aren't dumb or there to complain, heeding their advice might even save you money. Red flag imo.
- > We believe the best technology is the kind that doesn’t call attention to itself. So we are going to call attention it by writing about it here.
Last sentence should be:
> So we are going to call attention to it by writing about it here.
or
> > So we are going to call attention by writing about it here.
Both the grinder and espresso machine look amazing! I'd be curious to see more photos of a "real" setup with these things on a countertop. Especially where those two tubes from the espresso machine go. I suppose one is power actually, so the other one just goes into a container of water?
- Re: the grinder and burr design - I am impressed that you’re taking a different tack from standard burr design, but it looks to me like you’re going to get extremely uniform grind size out of this burr design. There is a bit of black magic that goes into making great espresso, and my understanding of burr design was over grinding the beans actually led to a very “flat” tasting espresso, because everything was just far to uniform.
What have you seen in testing this grinder/burr design? Any numbers after screening the grinds?
- Beautiful design. Curious since you mention the issues with plastic, what's the part that you couldn't avoid plastic for the trefolo (given you mention it's 0.01% plastic)?
- Wow, just incredible props for getting this over the finish line. As someone who has manufactured a purely mechanical product, I can't imagine the hassle dealing with factories on this. They absolutely hate doing anything they haven't done before, especially if the tolerances are tight.
The products are right up my alley too, though I'm all manual at this point. I hope the Trefolo and Turbina are both so wildly successful that you end up making manual versions of both. :)
- > Some people might say that it’s cool to open to open up a home appliance and expose yourself to high voltage AC components, but at the end of the day, it’s also pretty fun.
Ok you got me.
- How do you control this machine? Is it touch screen based, app based, or physical controls? If physical controls is there enough feedback that you could use this totally blind? Sorry for the somewhat duplicate post but I think this got lost in my prior post where I was discussing both the espresso machine and grinder. edit: I saw the manual after I posted this, looks like it's a simple knob to control pressure with a simple start and stop button.
- Right, but is it Nespresso compatible? Not clear from the website
- For this price, these are both great if they work well. It's very much the lower end of pricing for espresso capable equipment.
I look forward to seeing some reviews.
That being said, while you have increased the burr surface area, it feels like the grinder design would lead to a lot of re-grinding. Also, there is a reason decent espresso uses vibratory pumps to great effect, and its not because they're cheap or because they output a noisy flow of water.
- I kind of love the idea of reducing the tech, and bringing everything back to the basics, and searching for improvements on the core stuff like the pump. Hope you succeed. I'm in the market for an espresso machine, probably not an untested (at scale), but in a year or 2 when you've worked out all the kinks in production and you have reviews... i could see myself looking at this as an option.
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- I can't point them out here right now (on mobile and takes more effort than I care for at the moment) but you have several typos on the website.
- I like the design. I do not understand the $700 price beyond coffee nerds are used to paying that much for equipment. I’ll wait.
- The cable management of the Trefolo. Would be nice to be able to run it along the back of the stand would make it more elegant and minimalist.
Links to reviews by known coffee reviewers on YouTube would help.
Definitely considering the grinder as I’ve been frustrated with the retention of my DF83.
Also, I hope it was designed for serviceability as well since everything breaks eventually.
- That's pretty cool.
- What did you use to prototype your project? What software and what companies offered prototyping services for your project?
- Was it hard to get the whole machine made? How is the market for small scale manufacturing?
I'm asking because I have some designs, that I never materialized - because there were no companies that would mill a one off item.
- Congrats on making this! Looks very cool! For me it was very hard to learn about your products from your website. It is painful to scroll, it lags a lot and I had to put very much effort into getting the information I wanted. The design definitely sparked interest, but website killed it. Good luck on your journey!
- That is impressive...
I will be the one saying this though: While the design of the metallic parts looks really good, the wooden arch not _at all_. It is _very_ offputting for me.
I think if you want wood, you should do more wood, sturdier and without the "ethereal" shape that feels very dated (for me this is straight from the 90s).
- Great work! Always fantastic to see works of love of passionate people, who want to challenge the status quo. That's what it's about!
The "see more" link on the grinder page is not working, https://velofuso.com/oculo
- > but like many things it sort of spiraled out of control from there.
I love when this happens, beautiful work, impressive! Looks like you have it well under control :)
- Basically this is a Flair with an electric pump, at 2-3 times the price. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
- I appreciate the effort you've put in. But I'd like to see a non marketing video of it in operation.
- Where do the pipes go?
- These horrible scroll animated css pages are the bane of all products. Just create a video next time.
- I wish there were more products like this. Just straight up build quality. I'm not yet talking about the product quality or performance, but if someone puts in this much work in building something, I can trust them to iterate and commit to its overall quality.
- This looks cool. I would like to see a video showing how it makes brewed coffee. I’m currently using a moccamaster (for convenience), but it has far too much plastic. Pour over is a pain in the ass. I’m curious if you plan on shipping to Europe (where I live).
- Lovely design. Just a quick note to say that here in Australia, people are coffee crazy and would probably find a home for your kit. That includes individuals at home, but also cafes and hotel foyers etc.
Might be worth considering an AU plug as an option (we run off 240v).
- I look forward to the James Hoffmann review, should it ever come about. Am tempted to buy as a piece of functional art that I can drink. Currently, the 9Barista serves that purpose. Every. Morning. Bought it after the Hoffmann review. Good luck!
- Nice job! You should add an about us page to tell your story and your mission. Even use pictures of yourself in the marketing because people love to support independent coffee companies. I hope you get rich and famous for all your hard work.
- Espresso machine getting 455 upvotes and 213 comments on HN was not on my 2024 bingo card
- $649.00
Nice. But I prefer this one and I will build it: https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/projekt-eigenbau-kube.957...
- Looks very interesting! A video is also a must for me as well as an independent review. I would love to be updated though, and I think you could pick up a lot of potential leads by having a newsletter. But exciting stuff! Good luck :)
- Looks awesome. It's way too expensive for me, but i love the design. I do wonder about the cleaning process, in particular how many times and how much effort i have to do to clean it and make sure it keeps making perfect espressos.
- Your story is nice and all but there are no actual videos these devices running. The website seems to feature blender generated mocks quite well though. And you're taking preorders?
I'm surprised folks are willingly getting scammed.
- Have you reached out to coffee influencers with review copies?
That might be worth doing; it seems like this is the kind of thing that they would like to cover, and if the feedback is positive than that could drive a lot of sales.
- Yes! well done. Having taken apart some consumer level coffee machines I was shocked at the poor design. Something much better is possible, but requires redesigning the base components that are common off the shelf
- Could you go more into detail on the actual process of designing, prototyping, and manufacturing? Like how would an average person, given enough motivation, do what you were able to accomplish?
Also, how did you fund this?
- As many have said, get some good reviews in. I love almost everything about this machine and if someone like James Hoffman likes it, I might buy one for real. The wife acceptance factor of this thing is huge.
- Not a fan of the tubes sticking out the bottom aesthetically but looks nice! Looking forward to hear of other people’s experiences with it once some people have got their hands on it.
- I almost bought one, but then I realized I have to manage the water temp myself. Sorry, but that's too much work, which means this will likely end up collecting dust after a month.
- Send it to Lance Hedrick I'm sure he will make useful suggestions.
- Very impressive. The rotating Trefolo would look better without dust.
- Do you have a team? Or is this largely a solo project? Very impressive — I hope you keep at it, would very much be interested in a v2 or v3 Turbina grinder.
- While I'm not in the market for an expresso machine, the price seams reasonalbe for a low volume design product
If I would be in the market, I would consider this offering.
- Designs look great. Only comment would be to hide the wires better on the espresso machine. Maybe find a way to route them down through the supports?
- I love the concept of the cylindrical burr, but it is just arguments now. I'd love to see data on retention, and particle size distribution.
- Congrats from Vibrateau, région vibratoriale, France.
- Very cool work, would love to test this out. Would definitely need to see some videos of it working before thinking to purchase it though
- Out of curiosity, have you tried running extremely light roast/dense beans through your grinder? How does it perform with them?
- Congrats on launching a product. Unfortunately, I think you've misread the market here. This is a space with immense competition, high prices, and even higher expectations around quality. While you're concept is neat, it's falling short.
The grinder looks sweet, but the espresso machine looks completely janky with the "wires" running out of it. A power cord is expected, but having a power brick on my counter ABSOLUTELY is not expected. Not to mention, the wire looks flimsy. The second wire was a head-scratcher. Turns out that's the water line. That's a bit of a shock since you never mention this is a hard-wired system or show a reservoir.
Finish on the espresso machine components looks poor. Almost all of the metal pieces have millwork marks, inconsistent finish, and knicks in them. The photos clearly show poor tolerances on the wood structure. The video of a person rotating a knob shows absolutely terrible workmanship in the stand.
Oh, the wires. It's almost like they were a complete after thought and they ruin an otherwise amazing aesthetic.
I personally don't believe that wood is the proper material for the stand. While it looks nice, it's durability is going to be crap for a tool that handles water. Water collects on the counter. Water splashes from the cup. Steam everywhere. Those are all recipes for wood going bad. No sense having this amazing, durable espresso machine when you can't use it because the stand went bad.
Oh, the wires.
One of demo photo of this in action shows something that doesn't even look like espresso. Some sort of dirty water (not even coffer water) being pulled into a steamed up wine glass. The other demo video shows rather poor shower distribution. Neither of these scream a machine that competes in this space.
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Generally, I see a focus on technical discussion of the machine's engineering. I don't see any discussion on how well either machine actually does it's job, including possible technical details.
For the espresso machine:
* Water pressure consistency
* Water pressure level and adjustment (though the specs do suggest this is adjustable)
* Water temperature
* Water temp consistency through the brew cycle
* Where's my steam? Do I need a separate machine for steaming milk?
* The power block. Ewe.
For the grinder:
Honestly, it looks polished. I don't "believe" the marketing materials as your claiming a novel grinder design that outperform the rest of the market. This is just going to come down to this grinder building a reputation as good. Get it in the hands of reviewers and community members.
- This is lovely! Good work on the machining. Will there be iFixit guides to stripping them down and reassembling them?
- People say "hardware is hard" but that's because it's true. Congratulations man, really cool work.
- Beautiful objects! I'll wait for review and maybe order one haha although my favorite coffee is still french press
- What temp is the pump rated to? I've been looking for a pump for a sous vide and wondering how viable this is.
- For all the talk about "beautiful" design, the photos and videos look super overlit and quite amateurish.
- If advertisements took the form of this post I wouldn’t hate them and they would sometimes succeed with me.
- Are the Trefolo legs weak? It looks like the wood for both sides of the legs only connect in the back.
- And where the water pipes go exactly?
- Why can't you just show a simple embedded video of the product instead of parallax embedded background video that scrolls badly even on decent hardware and gets all distorted depending on display resolution?
- Building a new kitchen consumer device is nearly impossible. This is amazing. Congratulations!
- The design is a call to try and then buy. Did you have any great coffee aficionados try it?
- I want a new grinder for a long time now, sadly our Mahlkönig works and works and works.
- Can you set grind size for filter machine? Hard to tell from the website
Otherwise impressive work.
- > Maxiumum dose: 20g
I found this spec a bit strange. Maximum dose is a function of the basket AND the coffee, both of which are up to the user, so I don't understand why this is in the machine's specs.
> Basket style: Naked/non-pressurized (And it better stay like this)
Naked refers to the portafilter not having spouts, it has nothing to do with the basket. And what if I prefer to use a spouted portafilter and/or a pressurized basket? This feels unnecesarily confrontational.
- Hardly the first conical burr grinder. Niche Zero has been available for quite a while; https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/products/niche-zero
Edit: Misread cylindrical as conical
- I’ve read probably 100 comments before I stopped. It’s really sad how negative HN has become. I wonder how many of those comments are from people that are really into coffee.
Super cool product. Especially interested in the grinder. I recently purchased a Niche Duo and was not very impressed in the upgrade from a Zero. Kind of wished I would have gone a different direction entirely. Maybe something like yours.
Regarding the website, I was on mobile and it seemed fine. I like the very Apple-y product showcasing. I think it’s fun.
Regarding the espresso machine, I think people are being very silly about the plastic and external heating source.
A tube going into kettle? Like, people are consuming 10x as much plastic eating beans out of a can or getting a coffee to go from their local shop.
The external heating source is also exactly how Modbar works. I think it’s cool you don’t double or triple the price by basically doing what Modbar does. A nice kettle can hold temps to approximate levels pretty well.
I think people should see this for what it is: a specialty espresso machine. It could be a statement piece, or perhaps a really interesting option for great espresso depending on how it performs. Have you tried to get it in front of daddy Hoffmann?
- This is a gorgeously and uniquely designed product. Very cool.
- 49mm Portafilter? Was unclear from the site but seemed so?
- As a coffeegeek myself, i would like to see a video before!
- I don't even drink coffee and I want one! Nice work
- I would love to see a whole process how you engineered it
- The design looks pretty but I'm sticking with freeze-dried granules, a kettle and a mug. Proper coffee, with none of this squeeze-the-beans rigmarole that needs complex machinery to make.
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- what... $700 for a... grinder? What in gods green earth would someone need a $700 coffee grinder for...
- I am very intrigued by your grinder.
How does it compare noise-wise?
- Kudos !
Is the pump alone compatible with a nespresso machine ?
- https://www.diypresso.com/ is an open source espresso machine
- this is really cool, congratulations on the launch!
i'm definitely in your target market - my daily drivers are an 83mm flat burr grinder and a manual lever machine. don't get me wrong, i love them both, but i'm intrigued both by your grinder and espresso machine and i am strongly considering pre-ordering both.
here's my little laundry list of unanswered questions:
1. workflow/usage video! i know it's come up but i definitely am keen to see the grinder and espresso machine both in use.
2. particle size distribution for the grinder would be really cool. i know that distribution isn't everything, but this is a whole new style of burr and people (myself included) are going to be (or already are) very curious about how they compare to existing conical and flat burrsets. also, any word about retention?
3. can the trefolo do pressure profiling? if so, is that profiling based on pre-set shot profiles, or is it live profiling via the knob input, or both?
4. is the group electrically heated, or does all of the preheat temperature come from the hot water? especially for very light roast espresso, i've found that it's just impossible to brew at 96-98°C without electric heating, and there are some shots that i've only been able to get balanced up at those temperatures (they were just pulling way too acidic even at 94).
5. does velofuso have any social media accounts we could follow? where should i be keeping my eyes out for videos, project updates, etc?
- Thing thing I was most impressed with here was smeeeeeeeeeeeee's username and the fact that it's bright green. What does that mean? 8-\
- Honestly, I think you should go on Shark Tank and find a way to get millions of people to see your product. The products are visually so distinct from anything anyone has seen before. I think they'd do better with a stronger marketing /presentation.
Looks amazing! Good luck!
- just 649, why so cheap ? why not charge a subscription along with the base price of 10,000 ?
- Mad props for offering a pump kit!
- Rare to see a physical product release here. Congratulations!
On the surface, the problem you are solving looks clear and the product itself looks amazing.
But curious what actual baristas think of your product. I don’t see any product reviews on YT, but I suppose it’s not entirely unusual for a brand new product.
Good luck, definitely keeping a tab on this product. Need to migrate away from buying to making it at home. And this product would be perfect for the limited counter space I have.
- i'm not a big fan of this space ship design.
- This is nice!
- Looks neat!!
- My brother in Christ... $1400 for a coffee grinder and espresso machine?!
I am into mechanical keyboards and IEMs and that feels outrageous to me. I'll spend $40 on a pen, but that price point feels insane to me.
Maybe I just like my garbo Aldi's whole bean coffee with cream & sugar, so I am not your target market... I hope you find your niche - I am sure it is out there if you went this far. But man.. I couldnt ever spend that much on the tools to make coffee.
